Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones
About this episode
Ezra Klein interviews novelist Zadie Smith about her novel The Fraud, using the 19th-century Tichborne trial — in which a working-class butcher convinced thousands he was a lost aristocrat — as a lens on modern populism. Their central question: why do people rally behind obvious frauds, and what do such movements actually win? Smith argues populist surges erupt when institutions feel rigged and every other outlet seems blocked; supporters may be factually wrong yet express a genuine emotional truth about injustice. She defends holding inner contradiction against political pressure to solidify into a single identity, critiques the linguistic turn in activism as materially insufficient compared to wages, housing, and health care, and treats smartphones and social platforms as behavior-modification systems that flatten the self. The conversation closes on aging, loneliness, and the difficulty of truly knowing others — with Smith praising privacy, listening, and deep friendship as antidotes.